Now, my question is, is the final recommendation to the President the recommendation actually made, or have there been some amendments added to it since?

Now, is there a copy of your recommendation to the President on which this statement was based, or is there no such document?

Secretary HODGES. No, there isn't any document there, because the recommendations came from many sources. After we had presented what we thought was the best thing to be done, of course as usual the President and the Budget Bureau get recommendations from other sources, as to what they think. So we don't necessarily get all of our language into a document.

Mr. NELSEN. Well, I was a little concerned about the point that the chairman raised about the jungle war in rates, where we wind up if the lid was taken off all the way around.

Secretary HODGES. I think-so as not to leave it hanging, Mr. Chairman-certainly you have that possibility always. That is part of competition, not only in transportation, but in other things. But I think you have the remedy of injunctive relief under the antitrust laws, if you see something like that developing.

Mr. NELSEN. No further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, right on that point, then-the thing that worries me about it, Mr. Secretary, I might say-and I hope some time during the course of these hearings you will elaborate on it further. I am inclined to agree that there is a lot of merit in what you are proposing in the interests of the public. If certain deregulation can work and is practical, and through competitive enterprises can work for the best interests of the public, I think it is a good thing to consider. But what has bothered me somewhat is the possibility of leaving the common carrier in a position where it will provide selective rates. In other words, in order to meet certain competition in one community, it will provide a certain rate, whereby in another community it would not be necessary to provide that particular rate, and thereby give advantage of one area or community over another.

Now, I hope when we have more time that you or somebody in your organization will expand on that question some. I would certainly like to have some discussion of it.

Secretary HODGES. All right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rogers of Florida.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, I have enjoyed your testimony this morning. I think you, along with the Under Secretary, have made some very fine points that have been brought out. I am concerned, however, about the proposal here where we take off minimum regulations-that we are in effect substituting perhaps the regulation now of an agency set up to go into this on minimum rates, and simply turning it over to the Department of Justice under this antitrust provision. And I would have great concern about this. I do want us to go into this further with questions, Mr. Chairman, to make sure that we are not going to subject the entire industry to harassment, and simply turning regulation of minimum wages over to the Department of Justice, rather than as it is now regulated by agencies set up to study this and do this same work. And I hope you would have that same concern.

Secretary HODGES. I would indeed, Mr. Rogers. I would like to add this. I think after you do this, assuming you did, that if the industry doesn't know any better than to bring on itself this kind of thing, then it is just too bad. I would hope very much that we would not get into the antitrust laws with Justice taking over, because nobody wants that to happen.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. And I presume you have had liaison with Justice, and that they are in accordance with your approach to this problem.

Secretary HODGES. Yes, sir.

Mr. STAGGERS. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I would be glad to yield.

Mr. STAGGERS. I would like to commend the Secretary and the Under Secretary, too, for their new approach to these problems.

I would like to ask this question. Would the Robinson-Patman Act prohibition against discriminatory pricing apply in this case?

Secretary HODGES. No, sir, that does not affect services. That applies only to commodities for sale.

Mr. STAGGERS. Well, does the Clayton Act prohibit against tie-in sales apply?

Mr. BARTON. No, sir, it does not.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that?

Mr. BARTON. No, sir, it does not apply.

Mr. STAGGERS. It goes back to the first question which has been around a couple of times. What protection can be afforded against discriminatory ratemaking in 11583, if there is any?

Mr. BARTON. As far as the railroads are concerned, ICC still has authority over discriminatory rates, preferences and prejudices, and the safeguards of other sections of the act. Certainly the antitrust laws would apply, as provided in the bill.

Mr. STAGGERS. Those are all the questions. I would like to ask some more later. Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sibal.

Mr. SIBAL. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Secretary and Mr. Martin, I, too, would like to commend you for what is obviously a great deal of effort and work in making what I consider to be a very real contribution to the meeting of this problem.

Mr. Secretary, in response to Mr. O'Brien's questions, you have used the New Haven Railroad as an example of the particular problems which have come about today. I have a particular interest in that.

Is it your opinion that had we had the legislation you suggest on the books some years ago, that the New Haven would have been able to meet its problems in a better way so that it would not be in the shape it finds itself in today?

Secretary HODGES. Assuming it had a strong management during that whole period, yes.

Mr. SIBAL. Do you feel that the problems of the New Haven, which I know you have given some thought to-we have corresponded about it came about in part, in any event, because of the regulations under which it had to operate?

Secretary HODGES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SIBAL. And do you feel that the passage of your suggestions would enable management, which we hope and assume will be strong, if it hasn't been in the past-can resolve some of these problems favorably under these proposals?

Secretary HODGES. Yes sir, I do. I think that a strong management that has a consideration for the total public interest, in both an ideal and practical point of view, under these things, can get along and can make money.

Mr. SIBAL. You would agree with me now, Mr. Secretary, that the public interest, which we hear a lot about today, requires the operation of a railroad in southern New England.

Secretary HODGES. Definitely. I think it is necessary to keep it going.

Mr. SIBAL. And the Government has a particular interest in this in the overall, would you not say?

sir.

Secretary HODGES. It has to, because it represents the total public,

Mr. SIBAL. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kornegay.

Mr. KORNEGAY. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Secretary, Mr. Martin, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome my fellow North Carolinian here today. We are very happy to have you, Mr. Secretary. I certainly appreciate what I consider to be a very fine statement which lays down a real challenge to this committee and the Congress, to assist in making improvements of our public transportation system. As a frequent user of several means and modes of transportation, I certainly agree with you, sir, that a great deal more imagination can be used by them, and if we can assist in extricating them from many of the regulations which they contend encumber their activities, I think it would be a good day's work.

Secretary HODGES. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all, Mr. Kornegay?

Mr. KORNEGAY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Governor Thomson.

Mr. THOMSON. Governor Hodges, you are impressive, as usual. I agree with your friend from North Carolina that you presented us with a challenge. You are also very persuasive. I am hopeful that with that persuasion you will have a few moments to spend with Orville Freeman.

Secretary HODGES. Go ahead, Governor.

The CHAIRMAN. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. THOMSON. In the hopes that some of this philosophy of lessening of regulation and greater freedom might rub off on him. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I might say, in order that the record may be complete, to our distinguished colleague from Wisconsin, perhaps the Governor has already spoken to the Secretary of Agriculture, because we have two reports on these two bills which have just been put in the record, and which he approves and recommends both bills.

Mr. THOMSON. Well, Mr. Chairman, might I observe that that might be an encouraging sign, but it hasn't extended to the field of agriculture.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Chairman, may I comment to the Governor. Governor, I believe one of the bills that you support in particular that

is the reparations bill for motor carriers, has already been reported by the Subcommittee on Transportation and Aeronautics to the full committee, but it has not yet received executive consideration of the full committee. It is my hope that the parent committee, that is the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, may be able to consider this legislation at its next meeting, or as soon as possible. I quite agree with the position taken by the Department on that legislation. Secretary HODGES. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. The subcommittee has done its usual fine job with the bill, but we find it before the full committee in a highly controversial state.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I quite agree with the chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I observe that the subcommittee, I believe, adopted an amendment that has thrown the thing topsy-turvy, in an effort to get something done about it, and the chairman did attempt last year to resolve these competitive forces. I might say that was without

success.

Mr. WILLIAMS. May I say, Mr. Chairman, that the amendment was adopted over my very vigorous protest and opposition, and it was my intent, when the committee met in executive session, to seek an amendment to the bill, seeking the approval of the full committee, to an amendment, that would take that objectionable language out. I was presuming I would have the support of the chairman and the other members of the committee, of course-and that we have the support of the Secretary of Commerce.

The CHAIRMAN. The chairman will certainly try to accommodate the chairman of the subcommittee in the very near future.

I wanted to ask-and I see the time has already passed-I did want to ask this question or two, Mr. Secretary, before we concluded today. I am impressed by your recommendation of experimental rate authority. As far as I know, in the 20-odd years I have been on this committee, this is the first time any such recommendation has ever been made to us. I may be wrong, but I don't remember any. And I am intrigued by your suggestion.

Secretary HODGES. Just another form of research, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Well, it speaks of the fine service and the usual good job you are doing as the head of this great organization down there. In the testimony presented by Mr. Martin, on page 3, in connection with the experimental rates and services, he stated, in comment about section 2 of the bill—

experiments would be volunteer on the part of either carriers and shippers and would not effect any of the present powers of the regulatory agencies.

That is in the first paragraph on page 3 of your statement, Mr. Martin.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, what I wanted to inquire about, and see if I am correct in understanding that section 2 of the bill would not in any way restrict the existing rights of the carriers to change their rights and services.

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir, this will not interfere with their rights. They could call them off at any time.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, on the following page, on page 4, I believe, you discussed through service, joint rates and joint boards.

As I interpret what you have said, generally the purpose is to encourage through routes and joint rates. I would like to inquire if it is the intent of the bill that carriers which have voluntarily entered into such arrangements could also agree voluntarily to terminate such arrangements.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, then, finally I would like to inquire with reference to H.R. 11583, where your reference is made to rates, fares, and charges for transportation of agricultural and bulk commodities-if it is not intended by the bill that the ICC be deprived of its authority to remove unjust discrimination against interstate commerce by prescription of a minimum level of intrastate rates. Now, that question was raised by another member a little while ago.

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir, I don't think so.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not think that that is intended by this provision?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And you think the provision with reference to discrimination, which I mentioned earlier, remains intact?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I just wasn't sure. I don't doubt your word at all. I am still not sure.

I think we should give some more consideration to this point. I hope you will.

Secretary HODGES. All right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Secretary, we have been around the committee. for the preferential questions from members. I am sure there are more detailed questions that will be in the minds of members. We will want you back at some convenient time.

Secretary HODGES. All right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I think, however, we probably should proceed with other witnesses as the schedule has already called for. As time goes on, at some convenient time, we will arrange for your return.

The committee has a rather important bill for consideration on the floor of the House this afternoon, and we will be unable to sit during the general debate.

Tomorrow I will say for my colleagues we will have an executive session of the committee at 10 o'clock, and I wish to encourage and ask the members to get here at 10 o'clock. If we can get a quorum here at 10 o'clock, we are going to take up the clear channel bill as reported by one of the subcommittees. I think most every member of the committee is interested in that proposal. I would urge we be here. On Thursday, we will have representatives from the General Services Administration, Department of Agriculture, and Post Office. On Friday, it is our hope to have the Department of Justice, and the Civil Aeronautics Board.

On Tuesday the 10th-next week is Fourth of July week and I don't think we would get many witnesses or members here on July 10, Tuesday, we will have the Interstate Commerce Commission, and Í will remind them and the members there is an all-star baseball game that afternoon, and we won't go beyond 12 o'clock.

Mr. Secretary, on behalf of the committee, I do want to thank you, Mr. Martin, and the other members of your staff for your appearance